/**
* vBulletin 3.8.7 CSS
* Style: 'Guild Wars Guru V3B'; Style ID: 13
*/
body
{
background: #AB9C7F;
color: #000000;
font: 10pt verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
}
a:link, body_alink
{
color: #750000;
}
a:visited, body_avisited
{
color: #750000;
}
a:hover, a:active, body_ahover
{
color: #BD6F01;
}
.page
{
color: #000000;
}
td, th, p, li
{
font: 10pt verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}
.tborder
{
background: #9E8C70;
color: #000000;
border: 1px solid #000000;
}
.tcat
{
background: #AC9D86 url(../Img/forumT2_catbg.gif) repeat-x top left;
color: #3C3326;
font: bold 10pt verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}
.tcat a:link, .tcat_alink
{
color: #3C3326;
text-decoration: none;
}
.tcat a:visited, .tcat_avisited
{
color: #3C3326;
text-decoration: none;
}
.tcat a:hover, .tcat a:active, .tcat_ahover
{
color: #000000;
text-decoration: underline;
}
.thead
{
background: #423A2F url(../Img/forumT2_headbg.gif) repeat-x top left;
color: #D8B98D;
font: bold 11px tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}
.thead a:link, .thead_alink
{
color: #D8B98D;
}
.thead a:visited, .thead_avisited
{
color: #D8B98D;
}
.thead a:hover, .thead a:active, .thead_ahover
{
color: #BD6F01;
}
.tfoot
{
background: #AC9D86 url(../Img/forumT2_catbg.gif) repeat-x top left;
color: #400F0B;
}
.tfoot a:link, .tfoot_alink
{
color: #400F0B;
}
.tfoot a:visited, .tfoot_avisited
{
color: #400F0B;
}
.tfoot a:hover, .tfoot a:active, .tfoot_ahover
{
color: #000000;
}
.alt1, .alt1Active
{
background: #DFD5BF;
color: #750000;
color: #000;
}
.alt2, .alt2Active
{
background: #FBF8ED;
color: #000000;
background: #cbc1ab;
}
.inlinemod
{
background: #FFFFCC;
color: #000000;
}
.wysiwyg
{
background: #F5F5FF;
color: #000000;
font: 10pt verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
margin: 5px 10px 10px 10px;
padding: 0px;
}
.wysiwyg a:link, .wysiwyg_alink
{
color: #22229C;
}
.wysiwyg a:visited, .wysiwyg_avisited
{
color: #22229C;
}
.wysiwyg a:hover, .wysiwyg a:active, .wysiwyg_ahover
{
color: #FF4400;
}
textarea, .bginput
{
font: 10pt verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}
.bginput option, .bginput optgroup
{
font-size: 10pt;
font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}
.button
{
font: 11px verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}
select
{
font: 11px verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}
option, optgroup
{
font-size: 11px;
font-family: verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}
.smallfont
{
font: 11px verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}
.time
{
color: #6E480D;
}
.navbar
{
font: 11px verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}
.highlight
{
color: #FF0000;
font-weight: bold;
}
.fjsel
{
background: #A79983;
color: #000000;
}
.fjdpth0
{
background: #A79983;
color: #000000;
}
.panel
{
background: #DFD5BF;
color: #000000;
padding: 10px;
border: 2px outset;
}
.panelsurround
{
background: #888272;
color: #000000;
}
legend
{
color: #000000;
font: 11px tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
}
.vbmenu_control
{
background: #591E1E url(../Img/forumT2_menubg.gif) repeat-x bottom left;
color: #DFBF82;
font: bold 11px tahoma, verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
padding: 3px 6px 3px 6px;
white-space: nowrap;
}
.vbmenu_control a:link, .vbmenu_control_alink
{
color: #DFBF82;
text-decoration: none;
}
.vbmenu_control a:visited, .vbmenu_control_avisited
{
color: #DFBF82;
text-decoration: none;
}
.vbmenu_control a:hover, .vbmenu_control a:active, .vbmenu_control_ahover
{
color: #DFBF82;
text-decoration: underline;
}
.vbmenu_popup
{
background: #FFFFFF;
color: #000000;
border: 1px solid #000000;
}
.vbmenu_option
{
background: #CFBA99;
color: 3B3323;
font: 11px verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
white-space: nowrap;
cursor: pointer;
}
.vbmenu_option a:link, .vbmenu_option_alink
{
color: 3B3323;
text-decoration: none;
}
.vbmenu_option a:visited, .vbmenu_option_avisited
{
color: 3B3323;
text-decoration: none;
}
.vbmenu_option a:hover, .vbmenu_option a:active, .vbmenu_option_ahover
{
color: #000000;
text-decoration: none;
}
.vbmenu_hilite
{
background: #BCA786;
color: #3B3323;
font: 11px verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif;
white-space: nowrap;
cursor: pointer;
}
.vbmenu_hilite a:link, .vbmenu_hilite_alink
{
color: #3B3323;
text-decoration: none;
}
.vbmenu_hilite a:visited, .vbmenu_hilite_avisited
{
color: #3B3323;
text-decoration: none;
}
.vbmenu_hilite a:hover, .vbmenu_hilite a:active, .vbmenu_hilite_ahover
{
color: #3B3323;
text-decoration: none;
}
/* ***** styling for 'big' usernames on postbit etc. ***** */
.bigusername { font-size: 14pt; }
/* ***** small padding on 'thead' elements ***** */
td.thead, th.thead, div.thead { padding: 4px; }
/* ***** basic styles for multi-page nav elements */
.pagenav a { text-decoration: none; }
.pagenav td { padding: 2px 4px 2px 4px; }
/* ***** de-emphasized text */
.shade, a.shade:link, a.shade:visited { color: #777777; text-decoration: none; }
a.shade:active, a.shade:hover { color: #FF4400; text-decoration: underline; }
.tcat .shade, .thead .shade, .tfoot .shade { color: #DDDDDD; }
/* ***** define margin and font-size for elements inside panels ***** */
.fieldset { margin-bottom: 6px; }
.fieldset, .fieldset td, .fieldset p, .fieldset li { font-size: 11px; }
#toplinks{
font-family:Tahoma, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 11px;
color: #C1AE8B;
margin-top:0px;
font-weight: bold;
}
#toplinks a{font-family:Tahoma,Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 11px;color: #8C7554;text-decoration: none;font-weight: bold;}
#toplinks a:hover{font-family:Tahoma,Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 11px;color:#BD6F01;text-decoration: underline;font-weight: bold;}
.topwrap {
background-image: url(../Img/forumT2_topbg.gif);
background-repeat: repeat-x;
height: 27px;
}
.headerwrap {
background-image: url(../Img/forumT2_headerbg.gif);
background-repeat: repeat-x;
height: 183px;
}
.mmoguru {
background-image: url(../Img/forumT2_mmoguru.gif);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
height: 27px;
width: 112px;
}
.logowrap {
background-image: url(../Img/GuildWarsGuru_logo.jpg);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
height: 183px;
width: 233px;
}
.headerR {
background-image: url(../Img/forumT2_headerR.gif);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
height: 183px;
width: 14px;
}
.topFORMarea {
width: 219px;
margin: 0px;
padding: 0px;
}
.topwrap .topFORMarea form {
padding: 0px;
margin-top: 0px;
margin-right: 0px;
margin-bottom: 0px;
margin-left: 7px;
}
.topwrap .topFORMarea select {
background-color: #CCCCCC;
width: 200px;
}
.topdivider {
background-image: url(../Img/forumT2_topdivider.gif);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
height: 27px;
width: 2px;
}
.footerwrap {
background-image: url(../Img/forumT2_footerbg.gif);
background-repeat: repeat-x;
height: 100px;
}
.footerL {
background-image: url(../Img/forumT2_footerL.gif);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
height: 100px;
width: 14px;
}
.footerR {
background-image: url(../Img/forumT2_footerR.gif);
background-repeat: no-repeat;
height: 100px;
width: 14px;
}
.headerADSarea {
height: 139px;
}
.tabArea {
height: 44px;
}
.navHome {
height: 44px;
width: 62px;
}
.navForums {
height: 44px;
width: 73px;
}
.navSkills {
height: 44px;
width: 61px;
}
.navCreatures {
height: 44px;
width: 87px;
}
.navAreas {
height: 44px;
width: 64px;
}
.navAuctions {
height: 44px;
width: 80px;
}
.footertext {
font-family: Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif;
font-size: 11px;
color: #FFF;
padding:5px;
}
#guru_list{position:absolute;top:2px;right:105px;margin-right:100px;z-index:100000}
#mmodb_list{position:absolute;top:2px;right:15px;margin-right:10px;z-index:100000}
#guru_list_a, #mmodb_list_a {color:#000000;font-weight:bold;background:transparent url(../Img/forum-) no-repeat;
width:153px;height:19px;line-height:19px;font-size:11px;font-weight:bold;display:block;text-align:center;
text-decoration:none;}
#guru_navitems, #mmodb_navitems {
background:#ab9c7f;
border:1px solid #353841;
position: absolute;
padding-top:20px;
width: 147px;
padding:0 2px;margin:0;
display:none;
left:0;
list-style:none;
z-index:100000;
}
#guru_navitems li, #mmodb_navitems li {margin-bottom:2px;}
#guru_navitems li a, #mmodb_navitems li a {color:#000000;margin-bottom:2px;}
/************************************************************************/
.t-footer {
clear:both;
position:relative;
height:635px;
}
.t-footer {
font:12px/1.5 Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;
background-color:#151515;
height:635px;
text-shadow:0 -1px 0 rgba(0,0,0,0.6);
position:relative;
border-top:30px solid #262626;
}
.t-footer ul, .t-footer li, .t-footer h4 {
margin: 0;
padding: 0;
list-style: none inside none;
}
.t-footer a {
text-decoration: none;
}
.t-footer:before,.t-footer:after {
content:"";
display:table;
}
.t-footer:after {
clear:both;
}
.ie8 .t-footer {
zoom:1;
}
.t-footer a {
color:white;
font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;
white-space:nowrap;
}
.t-footer a:visited {
color:white;
}
.t-footer a:hover {
color:white;
text-decoration:none;
}
.t-footer a>strong {
color:#ff5f14;
}
.t-footer a>strong:hover {
color:white;
}
.t-footer h1,.t-footer h2,.t-footer h3,.t-footer h4,.t-footer h5,.t-footer h6 {
color:white;
font-family:Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif;
letter-spacing:0;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-wrapper {
width:1000px;
margin:0 auto;
padding:40px 0;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-wrapper:before,.t-footer .t-footer-wrapper:after {
content:"";
display:table;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-wrapper:after {
clear:both;
}
.ie8 .t-footer .t-footer-wrapper {
zoom:1;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo {
float:left;
width:31.96667%;
margin-left:2.05%;
margin-left:0;
position:relative;
z-index:2;
border-right:1px solid #333;
}
.ie7 .t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo {
width:30.96667%;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo hgroup {
margin-bottom:15px;
margin-right:15px;
margin-top:-40px;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo hgroup h1 {
background-image:url(../Img/curse-logo.png);
margin-bottom:15px;
width:225px;
height:93px;
text-indent:-99999px;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo hgroup h2 {
font-size:12px;
font-weight:normal;
color:white;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo hgroup>strong {
font-weight:bold;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-signUp {
background:#262626;
-webkit-border-radius:8px;
-moz-border-radius:8px;
-ms-border-radius:8px;
-o-border-radius:8px;
border-radius:8px;
padding:15px;
margin:0 15px 30px 0;
text-align:center;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-signUp>h4,.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-signUp h5 {
font-size:20px;
font-weight:bold;
color:white;
line-height:1.2em;
text-shadow:0 1px 1px #000;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-signUp h5 {
margin-bottom:10px;
font-weight:normal;
color:#e6e6e6;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-signUp .u-button {
background-color:#EA8F20;
background-image:0;
background-image:0;
background-image:0;
background-image:0;
background-image:linear-gradient(top,#ea8f20,#c56711);
-webkit-border-radius:4px;
-moz-border-radius:4px;
-ms-border-radius:4px;
-o-border-radius:4px;
border-radius:4px;
-webkit-box-shadow:inset 0 1px 0 rgba(255,255,255,0.2),0 1px 2px rgba(0,0,0,0.05);
-moz-box-shadow:inset 0 1px 0 rgba(255,255,255,0.2),0 1px 2px rgba(0,0,0,0.05);
-ms-box-shadow:inset 0 1px 0 rgba(255,255,255,0.2),0 1px 2px rgba(0,0,0,0.05);
-o-box-shadow:inset 0 1px 0 rgba(255,255,255,0.2),0 1px 2px rgba(0,0,0,0.05);
box-shadow:inset 0 1px 0 rgba(255,255,255,0.2),0 1px 2px rgba(0,0,0,0.05);
text-shadow:0 -1px 0 rgba(0,0,0,0.25);
border-color:#C56711 #C56711 #EA8F20;
border-color:rgba(0,0,0,0.1) rgba(0,0,0,0.1) rgba(0,0,0,0.25);
overflow:hidden;
color:#fff;
padding:10px 30px;
font-weight:bold;
font-size:16px;
display:block;
text-align:center;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks:before,.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks:after {
content:"";
display:table;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks:after {
clear:both;
}
.ie8 .t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks {
zoom:1;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li {
float:left;
width:23.4625%;
margin-left:2.05%;
}
.ie7 .t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li {
width:22.4625%;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li a {
display:block;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li a i {
display:block;
margin:0 auto;
background:url(../Img/icon-social-links.png) no-repeat 0 0;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li a i.u-icon-youtube {
width:64px;
height:26px;
background-position:0 0;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li a i.u-icon-youtube:hover {
background-position:0 -28px;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li a i.u-icon-twitter {
width:37px;
height:27px;
background-position:-66px 0;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li a i.u-icon-twitter:hover {
background-position:0 -56px;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li a i.u-icon-facebook {
width:16px;
height:32px;
background-position:-105px 0;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li a i.u-icon-facebook:hover {
background-position:-105px -34px;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li a i.u-icon-rss {
width:27px;
height:27px;
background-position:-39px -56px;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li a i.u-icon-rss:hover {
background-position:-68px -56px;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseInfo .t-footer-socialLinks li:first-child {
margin-left:0;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork {
float:left;
width:65%;
margin-left:2.05%;
border-top:1px solid #333;
}
.ie7 .t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork {
width:64.98333%;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork header>h4 {
position:relative;
top:-9px;
background:#151515;
padding:0 10px 0 0;
display:inline-block;
font-size:14px;
font-weight:bold;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-jumpLink {
float:right;
position:relative;
top:-9px;
padding:0 10px;
font-size:10px;
height:16px;
line-height:16px;
text-transform:uppercase;
font-weight:bold;
background:#383838;
-webkit-border-radius:6px;
-moz-border-radius:6px;
-ms-border-radius:6px;
-o-border-radius:6px;
border-radius:6px;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-jumpLink:hover {
background:#ff5f14;
color:#fff;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured {
border-bottom:1px solid #333;
overflow:hidden;
padding-bottom:1.5em;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem {
float:left;
width:23.4625%;
margin-left:2.05%;
}
.ie7 .t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem {
width:22.4625%;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem:first-child {
margin-left:0;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem h4 {
text-indent:-9999px;
display:block;
width:146px;
height:102px;
background-repeat:no-repeat;
background-position:0 0;
margin:0;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem.site-gw2g h4 {
background-image:url(../Img/featured-gw2g.png);
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem.site-lolpro h4 {
background-image:url(../Img/featured-lolpro.png);
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem.site-mmoc h4 {
background-image:url(../Img/featured-mmoc.png);
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem.site-gw2db h4 {
background-image:url(../Img/featured-gw2db.png);
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem a {
display:block;
cursor:pointer;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem a:hover h4 {
background-position:0 -102px;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem dl {
margin:0;
background:#262626;
-webkit-border-bottom-right-radius:8px;
-moz-border-bottom-right-radius:8px;
-ms-border-bottom-right-radius:8px;
-o-border-bottom-right-radius:8px;
border-bottom-right-radius:8px;
-webkit-border-bottom-left-radius:8px;
-moz-border-bottom-left-radius:8px;
-ms-border-bottom-left-radius:8px;
-o-border-bottom-left-radius:8px;
border-bottom-left-radius:8px;
width:126px;
padding:5px 10px;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem dl dt {
font-weight:bold;
color:#fff;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-featured .t-footer-featureItem dl dd {
margin:0;
font-size:11px;
white-space:normal;
line-height:13px;
color:#ddd;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-browse {
position:relative;
padding-left:170px;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-browse:before,.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-browse:after {
content:"";
display:table;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-browse:after {
clear:both;
}
.ie8 .t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-browse {
zoom:1;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-browse>li>a {
position:absolute;
left:0;
width:150px;
font-weight:bold;
color:#4b4b4b;
text-shadow:0 1px 0 #000;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-browse>li>a.j-selected,.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-browse>li>a:hover {
background:#2c2c2c;
color:#ff5f14;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-browse>li.t-footer-coreLinks>a {
top:0;
}
.t-footer .t-footer-curseNetwork .t-footer-browse>li.t-footer-communityLinks>a {
top:20px;
}
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Henchmen... stay on the called target - Guild Wars Forums - GW Guru
Nov 27, 2005, 06:40 AM // 06:40
#1
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: San Diego, USA
Henchmen... stay on the called target
Henchies switch targets if you do... they should stay on the called target (CTRL-SPACE).
Nov 27, 2005, 03:42 PM // 15:42
#2
of Brackenwood
Join Date: Oct 2005
Location: Ontario, Canada
Yeah, that'd be nice. Stay on the called target until it dies or 'till you call another target.
Nov 27, 2005, 06:01 PM // 18:01
#3
Ascalonian Squire
Join Date: Oct 2005
Guild: The Pantheon[Gods]
Profession: Me/E
that would be very nice
Nov 27, 2005, 06:58 PM // 18:58
#4
Krytan Explorer
Join Date: Jun 2005
Location: Texas
Guild: We Wear Sombreros [文文文], Ugly Ducklings [ugly]
It'd also be nice if they stayed on target after you die instead of each one attacking something different as soon as you're down.
Nov 28, 2005, 05:00 PM // 17:00
#5
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: Seekers of Justice ~ SoJ
Good idea. One other recommendation while discussing henchies is:
Scattering when an AoE is cast on them (come on Anet...you update the AI for mobs to scatter when an AOE hits, yet the henchies stand under a meteor shower or stand in lava/poison swamp until dead??). I noticed this while helping some friends with the abaddon (sp) mission. We went the back way, where the lava and the imps are. The henchies kept chilling in the middle of the meteor storm using their wands to attack. And they bathed in the lava, even while we moved all PCs to the side of one of those "islands" in the hopes they would stay out of it. We ended up just waiting to see whether or not they would eventually move or not, and sure enough, they just died. Dumb...
Nov 28, 2005, 05:01 PM // 17:01
#6
Lion's Arch Merchant
Join Date: Nov 2005
Guild: Seekers of Justice ~ SoJ
Good idea. One other recommendation while discussing henchies is:
Scattering when an AoE is cast on them (come on Anet...you update the AI for mobs to scatter when an AOE hits, yet the henchies stand under a meteor shower or stand in lava/poison swamp until dead??). I noticed this while helping some friends with the abaddon (sp) mission. We went the back way, where the lava and the imps are. The henchies kept chilling in the middle of the meteor storm using their wands to attack. And they bathed in the lava, even while we moved all PCs to the side of one of those "islands" in the hopes they would stay out of it. We ended up just waiting to see whether or not they would eventually move or not, and sure enough, they just died. Dumb...
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